Thanks so much for this, Nancy. I am so tired of my friends (Cesar Millan fans) giving me their insistant advice that my dog is "alpha" and I have to keep doing the "alpha roll" or I will have a confused dog. I don't want a dog if I can't cuddle with it on the couch; and I don't want a dog if I have to continually pin it on the floor. My friends say that I shouldn't have a dog if I'm not willing to do these "alpha" things and force the dog into "submission." Ridiculous!

As a fellow dog-trainer for more than 25 years (and definitely a non-supporter of Cesar's philosophies and methods), I was to see IACP's website acknowledging him as an Honorary Member and advocating viewers to check out his "tips". See link: http://www.dogpro.org/. Frankly, I think he's set positive motivational training back 30 years and resurrected Koehler's methods all over again.

Oops...I inadvertently deleted one key word from the above post:
I was DISMAYED to see IACP's website acknowledging him as an Honorary Member and advocating viewers to check out his "tips".

"The truth: Rewarding for the behavior you do want, as opposed to punishing for any number of behaviors you don't want, clearly communicates to your dog what's expected and is far more likely to generate confident, appropriate behavior."

That was said by C.W. Meisterfeld 30 years ago. Why was has his advice been ignored? He was saying that years before any animal behaviorlists existed.

You wrote: "Recently a trainer friend of mine commented that if you put three trainers in a room with a problem dog the only thing they will agree on is that the other trainer is doing it wrong. I strongly disagree with this."

Ironically, you proved your friend's point.

Cesar's way is merely to interrupt behavior that is not healthy for the dog and to redirect that behavior. I know this is wildly unpopular with people who don't know how to do it, and who have invested entire careers based on the fallacy that it can't be done unabusively.

But all around the world, people are doing it with their children. If your 12 child refuses to do homework, you don't ignore the behavior and wait. You interrupt and redirect. If your 2 year old tries eating every candy on the shelf at WalMart, you don't ignore and wait. You interrupt and redirect. Or at least I hope so.

Dog training has gotten a little wacky. No one should be cruel to a dog. I hope that's one thing we can ALL agree on. The problem is that some trainer's define a leash pop as cruelty. Holy cow, the dog chokes himself for miles, but if you interrupt that with a small pop it's cruel?

I have news guys. Many of your clients are coming to me after ignoring, waiting, clicking and treating isn't always doing the job.

You're taking Cesar's guidelines out of context. Clearly, you've not read his books or if you have, you're choosing to tell only part of his story. I watch his show regularly and I've read his books. He's very clear that training and positive reinforcement work well for many, if not most, dogs. But his primary message is that a dog is dog and their psychology is different from a human's and dog owners would better serve their dogs by understanding that. Your "if you dangled a human off a skyscraper" analogy clearly demonstrates that you disagree with him on a foundational level. You think dogs think like people, not like dogs. I'm inclined to agree with Cesar and when you put his advice *in context* and you understand the foundation of his philosophy, his methods become far less controversial.

I should probably share that after reading Cesar's books and thoughtfully applying some of his methods, I have a pug who has done a remarkable turn around in her behavior all because I changed mine first. I'm learning to set the rules, be calm and assertive (not punishing)...and low and behold, my dog is doing what I expect and what I ask. Best of all, I'm calm when I work with her, not frustrated, not angry, not confused about what to do. He changed my human behavior...I changed my dog's. Correction and discipline are not four-letter words in our house. Love is...and we have a lot of that, too. As a result, we have well-mannered children and now, well-mannered dogs (with a pug AND two Saint Bernards, manners are important!). Cesar has our support.

BTW, anyone who is constantly "pinning" a dog to the floor or who is advising people that this is Cesar's way hasn't read or understood what Cesar actually wrote about the "alpha" roll. They've missed the very basis for what he does and why. That's too bad.

You are only telling PART of what you see- what about when Cesar used massage and acupuncture on the fearful dog? was that abusive? you tell the part you want to - and leave the rest out- you also dont say what you would have done with the agressive dogs- what do you do-hand them a treat for NOT biting ? No- im sure most of the traditional "trainers" would put the dogs down - and if theres so many "trainers" with the answers -why not do what they do in the HORSE world- have a showdown with the three top trainers plus Cesar with the four most aggresive dogs out there - give them a week and see who did the best with the dogs--- ON VIDEO - then bring the dogs back -test for drugs - and have them go out into public or set up a stage test... or have them do it all in one session over a three hour time frame- and see which method works best = you will be showing the world which method DOES work - and saving a misguided dog at the same time= win /win situation -

HI Marc,
Great comments. Thanks for posting. I loved your Walmart analogy, and I had to think about that one for a bit. I am sure you are sick of hearing this one...but positive does not mean permissive. Our ways are not that different I bet. I would interrupt, redirect and teach what it is I want the dog to do and I would do it without using electric collars. I am sure you make much more money than I do. (insert very big grin)
We alkso agree that taking time and going slow and steady does not work for everyone. At the same time, I get a lot of clients that started out with more traditional trainers and will never go back. So that goes both ways. Here in Portland, there really aren't many traditional trainers left. Portland is a very positive reinforcement town.
Nancy

Cesar's way seems to me that you break the dog's spirit, in a way. I can't imagine that within a short amount of time you're suddenly healing unwanted behavior. I think that by believing in that, people are marginalizing their dog's intelligence. I have worked with Nancy for about a year now with my reactive, hyperactive lab/terrier mix, Lemmy. Through patience, diligence, and hard work he is becoming a better canine citizen who is beginning to exert actual self control. If I had chosen Cesar's method of training, I know I wouldn't have the charismatic, happy and ever willing to please dog that I know. There are no quick-fixes, which is what Cesar teaches. If a person is not willing to put the time and effort into a dog, then they shouldn't be dog owners.

Marc said: "I have news guys. Many of your clients are coming to me after ignoring, waiting, clicking and treating isn't always doing the job."

And many of YOUR clients are seeking out clicker trainers as an alternative to traditional jerk and pop methods. Positive trainers get a LOT of clients who didn't care for traditional methods. So this argument doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of reward-based training.

The personality and commitment of the owner has as much to do with the success of a training program as the method. If they are more comfortable jerking their dog's leash, they will be more likely to follow through with the training. However, if they are uncomfortable with that method, they won't be as likely to put in the practice necessary to be successful.

The difference is that reward-based methods when improperly applied only leave the owner with an untrained dog. Improperly applied punishment-based methods can leave a dog with severe behavioral problems.

I'm sure you are very successful at what you do and likely help many dogs stay in their homes. So am I and so are many other reward-based trainers. If you haven't tried or been successful with reward-based methods does not mean that they aren't effective.

It was only through skeptical inquiry, and not cynicism, that we learned the world was not flat, the earth was not the center of the universe and personal misfortunes were not the result of a witch's curse. Many of the "clicker trainers" you deride started as successful traditional trainers. That same skeptical inquiry led them to seek alternative methods after they saw dogs that didn't respond, deteriorated or suffered collapsed tracheas and other injuries as a result of jerk and pop methods.

Marie said: "his primary message is that a dog is dog and their psychology is different from a human's and dog owners would better serve their dogs by understanding that."

Actually, dog and human psychology are very similar in many ways. We process the basic emotions like fear the same way. This is why much of what we know about human psychology was learned by experiments on dogs.

Where we differ is in the more complex emotions and motivations, which is where many owners go wrong. However, if you look closely at dominance theory as Cesar and others like him apply it to dogs, it is incredibly anthropomorphic, applying very human-like motivations to the most basic dog behaviors like jumping or pulling on leash.

There is a great book that covers the most recent developments in our understanding of psychology and nueroscience in dogs. This scientifically tested and proven information, not the interpretation of one man. The book is "For the Love of a Dog" by Patricia McConnell, PhD.

Unfortunately, the show does not represent dog psychology, but pop psychology. If it helps some dog owners without causing problems, then more power to them. But what Nancy and thousands of other professionals like myself are saying is that it is not only not helping all dogs, but is creating very serious problems in many, many others. The kind of problems that silently land dogs in shelters, facing euthanasia as a result of ignorance and misinformation.

Gayle said: "and if theres so many "trainers" with the answers -why not do what they do in the HORSE world- have a showdown with the three top trainers plus Cesar...ON VIDEO"

Perhaps you haven't seen the show "It's Me or the Dog". They address serious behavior problems with reward-based methods.

There are several problems with the idea of a one-week challenge. One is that it assumes aggression can be "fixed" in a week. It can certainly be suppressed in that amount of time, but suppression of behavior is not changed behavior. If I take the spoon out of your mouth and push you away from the table, I have successfully stopped you from eating ice cream. I have not, however, changed your feelings about ice cream or the likelihood that you will try to eat it again in the future.

Aggression is not like a growth that can be removed. It is the dog's response to a particular stimulus, whether that stimulus be a person, another dog, or some change in the environment. Factors such as early socialization (or lack of), genetics (fearful dogs breed fearful dogs) and past experience (ie dogs that have been attacked by other dogs) all contribute to aggressive behaviors. So you would need to find four of the "most aggressive" (a highly subjective criteria) dogs that all had the same level of socialization before the age of 16 weeks, have the same history of aggressive behaviors in the last 5 generations of breeding, and have had the same experiences since puppyhood. So despite the belief that aggression is a simple behavior motivated by dominance, you can see it is significantly more complicated than that.

There is a DVD by Tawzer video on “Training Techniques” from the Pawlitcally Incorrect Symposium. They actually did a training challenge with a traditional compulsion trainer, an experienced guide dog trainer and an experienced reward-based trainer. They had 5 minutes to teach sit, down, come and stay. The only one who had any success was the reward-based trainer who was able to get all of the behaviors in less than 5 minutes.

And before you respond with the common argument that aggressive behavior is not obedience training and Cesar is not a trainer, you're absolutely right. However, the basics of learning are the same and modifying aggressive behavior is about the dog learning to offer another more desirable behavior in the presence of the stimulus that triggers the aggressive behavior, so one really needs a basic understanding of how to train a dog in order to effectively change behavior and not simply suppress it.

Ahh the old debate. What I don't understand is why so many people listen to him, a man who has NO real training in dog behavior or training himself? He admits he is self taught. (and did you see the episode with the dalmatian when he had no clue how clicker training worked?) Would you go to an untrained doctor? Lawyer? Dentist? Psycologist? Why aren't poeple asking about HIS training? Why doesn't he go to seminars to learn more? Good trainers CONTINUE to learn and grow. NO ONE knows everything in this field. Especially someone working only from his own observations. I watched my parents drive for years and still needed lessons before driving myself. I've owned cars for years, it doesn't make me a mechanic either though does it?

Being a good handler is not the same thing as being a good trainer either. (for those that think he is good with dogs) Try watching his show without sound sometimes and read the body language of the dogs he is working with. Yikes!

That said he does make SOME good points. Like dogs aren't people in fur coats and need structure or rules and exercise. For the record I was taught in both methods of training and even used force training for years myself. (I switched to positive after my apprenticeship.) Not all of it is bad IF applied appropriatly. But he isn't. Not if he thinks alpha rolls are ok to do. (read The other end of the leash by Patricia McConnell PhD in animal behavior on why this is wrong AND why it was recanted by the people who came up with it in the first place.)

Once you know better you do better. I only wish I found it sooner. It turns out that akitas, a sometimes very dominant breed, do MUCH better with positive methods. My current akita is even good with other dogs. Hmmm so much for needing to be physically dominant with them.

I could go on but I won't. I just wanted to jump into the fray for a sec I guess. I also get the clients who tried his methods and now need to fix what they ended up with out of it. Makes me fustrated. "Barking Mad" and "It's me or the dog" are two MUCH better shows to watch.

Positive doesn't equal permissive!! That bears repeating for sure.

I'm no expert, only a new dog owner trying to do the best I can. I'm using a combination of formal training at PetSmart, along with reading Cesar's book and trying to use some of his methods. So far so good, we have a happy, healthy, balanced 5 month old pound puppy. Thanks Cesar!

I have to chime in here. I am the owner of a siberian husky/german shepard/dobbie mix. When I got him at a year old he was a complete wild man. No training at all.

I would never do anything ever to harm my dog or any dog. Let's get that clear. I watched like 20 of Cesar's shows and did a lot of research. I don't think there is any cookie cutter type of training that works for every dog. Period. My dog had a real problem with respecting me, doing as told ... etc... right down the line. And to boot, he was afraid of everything.

I decided to take a stance. Most of the things I did were suggestions from the shows or other Cesar material. However, I did deviate some on some things to fit mine and my dog's needs. And that's the way I think it has to be done.

As far as Cesar goes. I think he has a lot of great ideas. He certainly knows dogs. But I stick with my theory that not every type of training works for every dog and every person.

Just my $.03 worth!

Oh, one last thing... the clicker methods and such... all the methods that require a device. What happens when you loose or just don't have the device handy when you need it? You have to buy a new one. So I really don't suggest any training that relies on anything you have to rely on. Use your mouth for sounds. You can make a lot of different effective sounds with just your mouth.

And by the way... you can now lay a sirloin steak in front of my dog's face... if I say "leave it" he doesn't touch it until I pick it up and give it to him. I can leave the room... indefinitely. :)

I've done well in training my dog... but I say this to everyone, it's not a one time thing that you do and it's done... training is continuous for life.

Zeus

I just read through the blog that this blog is apparently about.

Uh, I've watched A LOT of episodes of Cesar's and read A LOT of his material. You claim that he has hung dogs, rolled them and pinned them or in some other ways caused direct harm to them. Please provide a list of these shows. I've never seen any of the things you claim happen. I've never read about any of them in any of his material as well.

I've never even heard or read where he suggested using a choke or pinch color. He's mostly used whatever the person already had. Sometimes he does offer up one of those $.25 leash deals... I guess that might be what you call a choke collar. But that's what they give to you at the animal shelters when you take a dog home.

Could it possibly be that you might possibly be a bit jealous of the man? I mean, I know a lot of folks with Master's degrees and bigger... yet they don't know a thing about what it is they are suppose to do. A piece of paper doesn't mean you know any more than any one else. Just means you paid a lot of money to get a piece of paper that says something.

I don't have a college degree at all. Yet, the college here did hire me knowing full well of my credentials, and lack of, to teach. This is because I knew my skill very well... better than the ones with the degrees apparently. So I know full well that a degree doesn't hold water in a lot of cases.

Now I don't mean to imply that you don't know your skill. I'm sure you do. But there are many ways of doing things. Your's just might not be the best for some folks.

Ok... so I gave more than my $.03 worth...

Hmmmm very interesting. My posts have been removed. And I did not use foul language, I wasn't hostile.

No surprise I guess. If the owner of the forum disagrees with what you have to say, it gets removed. What a concept. I guess I was right.

Perhaps it was because I didn't leave an email addy. I will this time.

There they are!! Don't know why I didn't see them before, my mistake.

Most trainers are self taught and agree that experience with animals has been the best teacher. "Self taught" does not mean the trainer hasn't done extensive research and study. Cesar Millan HAS performed extensive study and research in addition to his vast first hand experience. Also it is important to note that Cesar Millan does not train dogs. He does not advocate using his technique to teach sit, stay or come. He works with the dogs to change behaviors that are based upon aggression. He does not abuse dogs. Positive trainers agree that dog owners need to be seen as the pack leader. The average dog owner is not equipped to train their dogs without professional assistance. The ones that are will use the techique that works best with their dog. A combination of approaches work best because there are different things we want to accomplish. Teaching sit or down is different than rehabilitating a food aggressive dog that is biting his owner. And use the method that works best with your dog. Get professional help if you need it. Your dog will appreciate it.

Envy and Pride,

In any circle of discipline you have a bunch of prideful people who can't stand not being right. There was never a quest aimed at finding solutions for the greater good; only personal pride. You want to be right. You can't stand the fact that what you've personally believed for years and years is not the popular dog training method.
Another commenter stated that you had taken Cesar's methods out of context. I'd say you ripped them out of context. If you would have paid attention, Cesar's 'catch phrase' if you will, is: exercise, discipline, and affection.
Don't worry to much about all this though. These kind of things go in cycles like everything else. Someday you and your methods will be king again and everyone will agree with you. Envy is a beast we must all battle during seasons of our lives.

At least you have a website that a lot of people read. I'm sure you really get a kick out of the attention.